Oppo Debate: How Do You Downshift?

"Mercedes Streeter" (smart) 03/10/2016 at 10:45 • Filed to: Transmissions

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Last night I got into a friendly debate (during the Dem debate) about shifting a Manual transmission...and the subject being coming to a stop...

I learned to drive Manual in my dad’s then Saturn. And I was taught that when you’re coming to a complete stop (ex: Stopping at a light), you’re supposed to downshift through each gear (if you’re in 5th, then you go to 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st). Plus on the upside, you get engine braking too.

My friend said nah, you don’t want to downshift through each gear because it puts unneeded wear on the tranny, engine, and clutch...just put it in neutral and brake to a stop. Then when the light turns green, put it in first and go on with your commute.

So, what do you think is the right way to shift to a stop? (not slowing, but complete stop). Do you go through every gear? Or do you pop it into Neutral and just use the brakes? Is either one more hurtful to the car than the other?

crowmolly > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:47

9

I do both. If nobody is in front of me and I’m going slow, I’ll just clutch in and coast.

Otherwise I’ll downshift but I might skip gears. I will not downshift into first.

Kind of a “depends on the situation” thing.

shop-teacher > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:48

12

I’m with your friend on this. Brakes are a LOT cheaper to fix than transmissions.

EL_ULY > crowmolly 03/10/2016 at 10:49

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when in a manual, that is how I do it

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:50

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The aerodynamic and drivetrain drag on the Land Rover is such that I don’t really need to do anything but pop it in neutral. That, and downshifting properly into first and second without stopping is HAAARD. No synchros, yo. If I need engine braking I just take it into third and let the engine go very, very slow.

*The preceding may not apply to any vehicle other than a Rover made since the SECOND WORLD WAR. Use at your own risk.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:50

3

Yep, I just stick it in neutral and brake, unless I fancy practicing heel-toe in which case I'll go through the gears :)

64Mali > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:51

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I would never shift into first except from a complete stop, my car hated it. I would switch between the 2, if the red light was far away I would down shift a bit to coast. If I was just coming to a stop I would clutch in and brake.

 > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:51

2

Depends how lazy I am feeling at the time. Sometimes I would just throw it in neutral and let coast. Other times I would go down gear by gear.

I’ve heard that downshifting actually helps to prolong clutch life. Don’t know if there is any truth to this though.

Meatcoma > shop-teacher 03/10/2016 at 10:53

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That is how my father explained it to me. Which would you rather pay for? Brakes or a new clutch. Brakes it is.

Dru > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:54

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I have an old 4Runner with about as much horsepower as your common lawn tractor. Generally, if I have to slow down below 35mph, I need 2nd to get going again. It's geared low, but woefully underpowered. 9 times out of 10 I pop it in neutral and brake.

iSureWilll > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:55

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I like to downshift once. Usually go down 1 or 2 gears(skipping the one in between) and come to a stop. Usually just because I like to practice heel toe and the Diesel engine braking saves brake components.

You can look at it both ways. Downshifting doesn't hurt anything and neither does putting it in neutral.

Nibbles > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:55

1

In the truck, where brakes are shit and 1st gear doesn’t matter, I’ll use the trans to slow down. I’ll downshift through to 2nd; by the time that gear’s spent I’m barely crawling anyway.

Party-vi > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:56

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Rowing down through all the gears sounds silly to me. When I had a manual I would just drop it into neutral and then stop, or hold the clutch out until I had stopped. It seems like a waste of clutch material to shift down in each gear.

Tentacle, Dutchman, drives French > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:57

5

How it’s taught here (The Netherlands) and why:

You downshift through the gears because it allows you to react quickly, should you have to evade something. It also happens to save fuel (on a modern car anyway) because the ECU doesn’t trigger the injectors during engine braking.

If you blip every downshift, the wear on the clutch will be minimal. Engine braking itself isn’t causing any more wear on the gearbox than accelerating in-gear. At the same time, it does not wear the brake pads.

TheHondaBro > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:57

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I downshift by giving it the BUSINESS.

TheJWT > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:57

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As much as I’d love to say that I heel-toe through every gear, I’m lazy and I just pop it in neutral.

Future next gen S2000 owner > crowmolly 03/10/2016 at 10:58

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This is my answer. I will normally put it in neutral and coast. unless traffic is slowing and i need to maintain speed.

I don’t know of any benefit to going down through each gear. Maybe to save your brakes at the expense of the clutch.

MonkeePuzzle > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:58

4

depends. if I know I’m going to stop, I just roll and brake. If I think I might be goign before coming to a stop (i.e. a stale red that may turn green) I’ll row down.

If I want to provoke a race against someone else I was aggressively rev and downshift whilst glaring sideways at them. then rev to the redline while the light is red.

... then do nothing becuase racing on the street is dumb

yitznewton > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 10:58

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No downshift. Unless you’re driving a classic Beetle or something with crap brakes :}

I grew up with Mom driving stick... she downshifted through the gears all the time, didn’t rev match 

Hello clutch replacement

shop-teacher > Meatcoma 03/10/2016 at 11:00

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Exactly

Mercedes Streeter > shop-teacher 03/10/2016 at 11:01

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Sounds like my father (the one who taught me to Manual) is a little left field? lol I was driving yesterday when I remembered shifting in the Saturn. It was 1,000,000,000,000 times easier to just go Neutral and brake, but I was scolded for “ruining the synchros”. lol

and 100 more > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:01

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I tend to go down thru the gears, but I’ll usually skip 4th and 1st if I’m intending to come to a complete stop.

My reasons:

engine braking

already in gear if traffic starts moving ahead of me

opportunity to practice heel-toe

CalzoneGolem > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:02

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I always just popped it out of gear and used the brakes. I’d only really downshift in the snow or on long downhills where I didn’t want to ride the brakes.

CalzoneGolem > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:04

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ruining the synchros

crowmolly > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:04

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It’s the opposite.

If you clutch in and coast, the internals of your trans are coasting.

When you change gears the synchros have to, well, synchronize.

Which means the sliders have to ride over the synchro teeth (there’s some wear) and the synchros need to spin up to speed (also wear). None of this happens when you clutch in and coast in N.

Jcarr > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:04

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Neutral and coast for me.

Sweet Trav > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:04

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I depress the clutch and come to stop at the stop light. I typically just held the clutch in and selected first, if it was a short light, for a longer light, neutral to rest the left leg.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:08

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I downshift to slow down if I have plenty of time to do it correctly (ie not rushing and rev matching correctly) but if it’s a quicker stop I just push the clutch in and brake. People who force it into gears without matching revs when slowing down are asking for trouble. Good anticipation allowing you to slow down properly with engine braking is just good driving technique though.

Nibbles > shop-teacher 03/10/2016 at 11:10

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Anectodal: My old 2000 Focus (ZX3, nice little ride actually) went 188k on the original clutch. I (and the original owner) downshifted to stop all the time

This has no bearing on the debate, just wanted to tell a story is all

Tripper > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:11

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If its a short distance in slow traffic I use the breaks. If I have a good length of road where I can see that I will need to stop (ie highway exit ramp) I will down shift all the way to 3rd, 2nd if I don’t have to come to a full stop. I do this with the full manual in the bimmer and the flappy paddles in the audi. I rarely down shift aggressively, when I do it’s only to prove that I can still do it properly.

JustJim > crowmolly 03/10/2016 at 11:11

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Exactly. It depends on circumstances. So all of the above.

shop-teacher > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:13

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Well, to be fair to him, there are a lot of people who do it the same way he does. They’re all wrong, but still :)

shop-teacher > Nibbles 03/10/2016 at 11:14

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Egggggselent.

You both must’ve been good at it :)

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:14

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On my truck I don’t even use the clutch I just shove it out of gear and let the high rollling resistance tires slow me down. I almost never down shift and rev match unless I’m driving swiftly in the Mazda3.

miadaman? yes please > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:15

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If you take a driving test with manual car here in Ontario, I believe they want you to down shift to 2nd gear before clutching in and stopping. I would not put in neutral too early since you lose the ability to accelerate in emergency. (for instance if the car behind you lose brake and you needed to dodge out of the lane)

I don’t really buy the synchro wearing argument since if you still drive a manual, you’ve at least learned how to rev matching.

Slant6 > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:17

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I’ll normally go neutral and brake a bit then ride 3rd with brakes until I stop. I normally try and slow enough to the point where I don’t need to stop if the light changes. Less stopping=less accelerating= less fuel used.

Moves-Like-Senna > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:18

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Something important to note is that in a lot of provinces and states, it’s illegal to coast on a public road in neutral. This may be why your father shifts down each gear. I’ve been pulled over for it, the officer didn’t hear my car downshifting, but heard the shifting going back up.

Nonster > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:23

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The difference in wear is really probably negligible. It depends on the situation and mood, but I do a bit of both except I heel-toe/rev match because its fun and to practice for track days

-this space for rent- > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:28

2

I downshift to second (or third, depending on speed) with the clutch in as I come to a stop, if I come to a complete stop I’ll go to first. I don’t engine brake often, since brakes are cheaper/easier than clutches. I never coast in neutral, the car is always in an appropriate gear for the speed i m travelling in case I need to react to something.

I agree more with your dad than your friend.

they-will-know-my-velocity > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:30

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Brakes are easier to fix than transmissions/clutches so I usually clutch in and brake up to the light. Depends on the situation.

However if it’s a long stopping distance and I’m going +45 I might do one upshift from 6th to say 4th or 3rd, just to heard that snap-crackle-pop.

Opposite Locksmith > yitznewton 03/10/2016 at 11:31

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My dad does this in my car :(( and I can't drive and I just have to cringe as he drives me to work

Master Cylinder > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:32

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I don’t usually put it in neutral, I usually just leave it in whatever gear I’m already in, disengage the clutch and coast/brake to a stop. Then once I’m stopped I’ll shift to first. My car doesn’t really like shifting to first while moving, anyway.

Übel > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:33

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What I do is, no matter how fast I’m going, put it into 6th gear, then heel-toe the whole way down to establish dominance.

duurtlang > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:34

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I leave it in the gear I was cruising in and don’t press the clutch until slightly before the engine would start to complain due to too low revs. Then I press the clutch and put it in neutral. This way you still engine brake during the vast majority of deceleration, although not as much, but don’t wear out any parts. It’s also more comfortable.

When I’m seeing an opening or light turning green I shift it from, for example, 5th to 2nd while rev matching, and skip the gears in between.

I’ve never owned a car that needed a new clutch. The brake pads on my daily are from the previous owner, despite me having driven the car over 100k km since I bought it. I think this shows how little braking is needed with my technique, although to be fair I mostly drive longer distances. The pads are about to be swapped now though.

Having said all of the above, I do see a lot of people shifting through every gear when coming to a stop.

Nibbles > shop-teacher 03/10/2016 at 11:39

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Always rev-matching, double clutching like we should

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:40

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If you rev-match your downshifts, it doesn’t wear your trans as much. Pro-tip: heel-toe braking/throttle blips for traffic lights make you look like a badass.

It is also more economical to coast to a stop in gear than to be in neutral.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:42

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How do I downshift? Like this:

BKosher84 > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:43

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I drive an Auto.. That’s how I downshift...

TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:46

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The only time you should ever need to engine brake is so your brakes don't boil/fade during a mountain descent.

ly2v8-Brian > CalzoneGolem 03/10/2016 at 11:48

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They are an inverted wear component, wear is increased with decreased use

citizennick > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:49

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I never row through each gear when coming to a stop. I might do it more now that my car has rev matching which is a guilty pleasure for me.

. . > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:49

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I usually go down through the gears, although I don’t shift into 1st.

McMike > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:49

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(Approaches stop sign/light in 4th gear)

Lift

Brake

Right before the engine slows down to idle, depress clutch.

Come to a stop

Putting it in neutral at this point, or selecting first while you wait is a debate for another day.

Only grab a lower gear if you intent on using it to accelerate. Repeat after me - Brakes are for stopping, gears are for going.

Again - Brakes are for stopping, gears are for going.

Disclaimer. Do I downshift to slow down? Sometimes, but it’s just for fun, or because I want to hear long bits of pop-snapply overrun.

Long story short. It’s a habit that serves no purpose. Use the brakes.

McMike > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:51

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Don’t go neutral and brake. Leave it in gear until you get back to idle.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Tentacle, Dutchman, drives French 03/10/2016 at 11:52

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Blipping the throttle is going to negate any fuel savings you get from coasting in gear.

Cé hé sin > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 11:54

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I was taught to in driving school so yes. Not to first though, there’s no need for that.

Khalbali > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:03

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I just brake in neutral although I have ridden with people that do it the other way too.

CalzoneGolem > ly2v8-Brian 03/10/2016 at 12:03

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Gotta spin them up to get them lubed up.

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:13

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If I’m going fast enough I like to heel toe through each gear but not into 1st, I never downshift into first before coming to a stop. Otherwise most of the time I coast.

Hoccy > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:20

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It depends on if I am going to a complete stop or not, and the length of the braking distance. If I have to maintain a constant speed down a hill I use the engine to brake, and I downshift if there is a possibility of not stopping. If I am downshifting I try to rev it up slightly, but it is hard to match with low engine noise and no tachometer...

CobraJoe > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:21

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The long and the short of it is: If you’re taking care of your transmission and clutch, you’ll likely never notice a difference in transmission longevity between coasting and engine braking. (Unless, of course, you drive all 300k miles of the car’s life yourself).

Technically, there is more friction and engagement when the car is in gear and slowing, but it is a far smaller force than it sees in nearly any other scenario, and it is certainly designed to handle the loads. Worried about the syncros? Learn to heel-toe.

More importantly, why would you be willing to give up the control by coasting in neutral? Downshifting on the way to a stop light means you’re already in the right gear if the light turns green before stopping. It also means that you’re not taxing the brakes in case you need to do an emergency stop, and you’re less likely to cause brake fade on a long downhill grade.

Personally, I downshift down to 2nd gear coming up to a stop. First gear usually is a bit too harsh and/or a bit unnecessary for the small amount of decel it’ll give.

CobraJoe > Party-vi 03/10/2016 at 12:25

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Don’t forget, when you’re clutched in, the clutch could still touch one side or the other, and your throwout bearing is under pressure. I wouldn’t reccomend it if you were focused on getting the longest life out of your clutch.

Brickman > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:26

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When im coming to a stop I put it in neutral, just before I stop (5 MPH or so), put it in 1st or 2nd, then continue :)

Downshifting so to traffic I use the engine as a brake, but only in 3rd or 4th gear.

Party-vi > CobraJoe 03/10/2016 at 12:28

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That’s good information to know. I’ll have to remember that when I get another manual car.

CobraJoe > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. 03/10/2016 at 12:31

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I would like to see the comparison in fuel consumption between the engine idling and blipping the throttle. I doubt it is much, but still probably dependant on how long you coast at idle vs how many downshifts.

I do have logging software for my Subaru, maybe if I get bored I can do some tests. Doubt I’ll be that bored though.

JeepJeremy > shop-teacher 03/10/2016 at 12:32

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This is the best answer!

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:32

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I don’t worry about wearing out the clutch downshifting. My dad has a ‘94 Z28 with 180k on it on the original clutch, and we haven’t really gone easy on the thing, the two of us being responsible for the bulk of the mileage. We usually downshift through the gears (because it sounds awesome), and then he tends to leave the car in gear and stand on the clutch through the light. Personally, I toss it in neutral and clutch out once I’m stopped. But basically we’re both very smooth drivers who don't do dumb shit, so the transmissions and clutches last a long time with us.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 12:35

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Usually I’ll disengage the transmission and use the brakes to come to a complete stop before downshifting.

#tractors4lyfe

CobraJoe > Party-vi 03/10/2016 at 12:45

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If you want the absoltely longest life out of a clutch, learn to float the gears, to upshift and downshift without even touching the clutch. This, of course, shreds the syncros and adds more wear to the transmission, but the clutch will last forever!

Honestly though, as long as you treat it nicely, you don’t really have to worry about the clutch. Don’t do racing launches regularly, don’t drive with your foot on the clutch, don’t do “clutch kicks”, don’t slip it excessively, especially at high RPM... Basically let the clutch up before putting the throttle to the floor. Avoid those things and the clutch will live a long and happy life.

I’ve been driving manuals for a large part of my driving life, and I’ve only ever replaced one, and that was mostly because I had to replace the rear main seal and just did it while it was apart. Buy a car with a clutch that feels solid, and it will likely last as long as you own the car. And if not, it is a wear part after all.

Party-vi > CobraJoe 03/10/2016 at 12:48

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I used to do that upshifting, but rarely “floated” to downshift. It was really fun to just let off the gas and lazily shift up a gear.

shop-teacher > JeepJeremy 03/10/2016 at 13:40

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Thanks!

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > CobraJoe 03/10/2016 at 14:16

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If you are coasting from highway speeds it might be net gain, but anything around 35mph I doubt it breaks even. Coasting and then clutching just before you start bogging down saves fuel, blipping through each gear will not.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > CobraJoe 03/10/2016 at 14:18

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This is what I do as well.

CobraJoe > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. 03/10/2016 at 15:24

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Again, I wouldn’t completely believe that unless I saw some numbers. Idling takes fuel and blipping does too but only in a quick burst.

Besides, from 35mph you need to blip less because you’re likely in a lower gear to begin with.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 15:27

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Rev match down shift as best I can to get the engine braking. Better fuel economy, and it shouldn’t have too much wear as long as you’re close to the right rpm. Also because race car.

On my motorcycle though, I coast to avoid wear on the chain

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > CobraJoe 03/10/2016 at 17:26

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If you are going through all the gears you will totally have to blip once you get to the low gears.

Nauraushaun > Mercedes Streeter 03/10/2016 at 22:20

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I’ve thought about this a lot. My conclusion is that people who say you need to downshift are stuck in the past. A time when cars had 4 drum brakes, and you couldn’t rely on the brakes to always stop you. A time when it was safer to use the drivetrain to stop you where you could.

That time is long gone. The brakes are made for braking, they’re extremely reliable and relatively cheap to replace. If you use the drivetrain to stop your car you’re doing it wrong, it’s called excessive wear.

To answer your question, I downshift how I want to. I don’t engine brake because it’s pointless. I often coast in neutral. I shift down the gears sometimes because I like rev-matching, and doing it myself is part of the reason I drive manual. I don’t blindly stick to an outdated practice without considering why.

If I sound bitter it’s because I’ve met many people in my life who swear it’s the right thing to do but can’t give a solid reason as to why. Old people, young people, smart people, people who know much more about how a car works than I but just don’t think.

Nauraushaun >  03/10/2016 at 22:23

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I can’t see how it would be true. You’re using the clutch more than you need to.

As far as I can see, it’s similar to saying “winding your window down more often helps prolong the window motor’s life”. If it fails, it will fail because it’s been used more, not less.

Nauraushaun > Nibbles 03/10/2016 at 22:23

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This. Having shit brakes is why you downshift. The vast majority of cars don’t have shit brakes.

Nibbles > Nauraushaun 03/10/2016 at 23:38

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It was a 900 dollar truck; I take no issue

Tentacle, Dutchman, drives French > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. 03/11/2016 at 12:49

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Possible, but I don’t think it’s likely. That quarter second half WOT isn’t much fuel, but even if that fully negates it, I’m not doing the downshifting for fuel savings anyway.

Ryanator122 > yitznewton 03/15/2016 at 04:54

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I have an EXTREMELY bad habit of doing this. In my defense, rev matching is obnoxious when you wear a size 16 :/

Flat Six > Mercedes Streeter 04/13/2016 at 18:40

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In the old days, the crappy drum brakes might fade before you can slow all the way down from 60 mph, so it was good to downshift before overheating them, especially if you were going down hill. It’s not so important on newer cars.